On my way home from church Father Bob and special guest (don't know who, sorry!) were discussing the ethics of suicide/euthanasia, on triple J.
The special guest asked:
Show me in the bible where God says that we should expect and deserve suffering? you can't can you... God doesn't want us to suffer. We deserve a choice.
Now this question wasn't answered... they just kept talking. Shame!
Then Safran asked Father Bob: now you worship a God who killed himself?
Tough Question.
Answers? Where would you start?
Sunday, May 18, 2008
Father Bob...
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4 comments:
was listening to that show on the way home too - but we must have picked it up later - 10ish... missed that story.
peaceout
yeah, I heard a bit of it too...until Jodie got sick of Father Bob (as she usually does - and with good reason!!)
interesting questions though!
with the suffering question/challenge - the assumption is terribly wrong!! It supposes that death is the end of suffering, for the non-christian that is just not true!
with "the god who killed himself"...I think J-Saf uses quips to make his point all too often. He's certainly good with language, but because you entrap your opponent doesn't mean you win (In my opinion, anyway!)
I think an answer would need to straighten out a few definitions.
I'll assume from the context that John meant to imply that "killed himself" = "consented to euthanasia"
Euthanasia is wrong (in a legal sense) because it is a kind of murder. Murder (in Aus, anyway) is defined as unlawful killing, euthanasia is one of the many 'unlawful' ways of killing.
In the case of euthanasia it happens to be killing yourself, or someone else killing you with your consent (voluntary euthanasia) or with the consent of someone else, often 'the state' (involuntary euthanasia)
The assumption underlying the crime of Murder is that it is wrong/unjust for humans to murder because they do not own the life they are taking, in the sense that they did not create it and it has not been given to them absolutely to do with as they wish.
I'd argue that you can't apply the same rules to God - it is impossible for him to murder since all life IS HIS. He is therefore free to give it and take it away as he pleases.
So even though you may say that Jesus in some sense consented to his 'euthanasia' in that he had the power to avoid death should he have chosen to, in doing so he did not 'euthanise himself' since God cannot murder and Jesus is God.
Of course the question could be answered more simply by pointing out that john's statement is not strictly true! Jesus was killed by Roman soldiers. Jesus did not "kill himself"! Jesus was killed as a result of capital punishment.
In Aus, capital punishment is not a part of our legal system, but this is not the case everywhere and I think can quite legitimately be held as one instance where killing is not unlawful for humans to do. Another might be killing in war.
Of course I am not saying that Jesus' execution was just - it was a completely corrupt process and the most horrific travesty of justice, but praise God who bought about the possibility of our forgiveness by it.
...My thoughts (end of rant!) Other ideas? what do others think?
Does anyone else feel it often easier to sympathise (and even side) with Safran rather than Bob?
...
Might you start by agreeing with the person that God doesn't 'want' us to suffer, but asking why they thought that we deserved a choice? Or even if we do 'deserve a choice', why suicide is a valid or good choice?
Suffering - It is so true that what you believe will happen in the 'life' to come determines so much of way you make choices today! But I also wonder what bible they read as for Christians we are to expect suffering - my 1 peter essay did teach me something i hope ;)
X's death as suicide - it is one of those sensationalist questions... like Is Christ's death Child abuse / murder?
...I'm trying to wrestle out whether both questions result from a wrong understanding of sin?...
I quite like Father Bob - I find him to be a humble fellow... But I do Agree with you Daniel: Safran has intlectual integrity. I can commend him on being very well thought through, despite having different opinions!
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